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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 6, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT

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simone-freedman, thank you both for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you lawrence. >> thank you. >> chris hayes is up next. >> the mayor of baltimore calls for a federal investigation into her city's police force as the police begin pushing back on the freddie gray charges. as hillary clinton attacks left, my interview with presidential candidate, bernie sanders. what exactly is bill de blasio up to with a new manifesto for progressives? >> you -- i actually think there's a yearning for a set of solutions. the state that banned fracking. deflategate is out. it looks bad for tom brady. what does the nfl do now? >> i am very comfortable saying, nobody did it as far as i know. i don't know everything. >> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. baltimore tonight is officially
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legally back to normal, though that doesn't mean anything has been fixed. earlier today, maryland governor, larry hogan, lifted the state of emergency he imposed on baltimore nine days ago after protests following gray's funeral turned violent. >> now is the time for us to come together and to focus on solutions. we must also look to turn the corner and work together to make important strides to heal our communities and begin to address the many long-term problems and issues. >> also cvs corporate just announced it will rebuild the baltimore owe locations that with severely damaged after rioting, one of which became the site of community celebrations and peaceful demonstrations. tickets just went on sale for a built set to take place sunday. prince is performing at baltimore royal farms arena where he is expected to debut a new song dedicated to the city. as baltimore begins to heal, officials acknowledge they have a long way to go to tackle the issues exposed over the past two weeks. today, the mayor formerly asked
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the justice department to open a pattern and practice investigation into the baltimore police department, the same kind of wide-ranging civil rights inquiry done in ferguson. >> i will make sure that whatever they find, we need to do to repair the relationship with the community and have a department that our citizens deserve. i'm determined to get that done. >> spokesperson for attorney general loretta lynch who visited baltimore said she is actively considering the mayor's request. two more cabinet secretaries came to town -- thomas perez and arne duncan, who talked about job training funds for young people in baltimore. joining me now, secretary of labor, tom perez. secretary perez, let me start with this. you are not at doj now. you were head of the civil rights division there previously. you can't comment on the specifics of this request or whether it will be granted. you can describe what this looks like. you oversaw them when you were
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at the doj. what does a pat inch and practice inquiry from the doj look like? >> we were involved in quite a few of those during my tenure. it is a soup to nuts look, getting at the root causes of whatever the situation may be. so in new orleans, for instance, we were looking at use of force. we were looking at arrests. we were looking at a wide panoply of concerns that were brought to our attention. the process of our investigation involved literally over 100 community meetings. we engaged experts, because the pattern and practice statute was enacted in the aftermath of the rodney king riots, the crime bill of '94. it is designed to get at root causes. it is designed to address system changes. we have used it at the department of justice very successfully over the years to
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change culture in los angeles, to address issues in portland, oregon, involving use of force against people with mental health issues, seattle, new orleans. a number of other cities. it can be a very effective tool. when you have cooperation from a city and from a department, it makes it that much more easy to do. and i met with the mayor today on the issues that we're working on at the department of labor involving the opportunity gaps and the need to provide access to better job opportunity and educational opportunities. she has been nothing but cooperative. she, to my understanding, has certainly been working closely with the department of justice, because, you know, communities work best when you have effective law enforcement agencies and when you have access to opportunities. zip code should never determine
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destiny. the issues we are working on at the department of labor involve getting at some of these root causes. >> let me ask you about that. zip code should never determine destiny, which i think is a statement that a lot of americans would agree with as a principle. it seems almost inarguable that that's the case. toyota here we are in america. it does determine destiny. we have data to bring that back. what realistically can the department of labor, the white house, the federal government do about the fact that your life is going to look a lot different, the odds are very different of what neighborhood in baltimore you're born into? >> as we've all discussed today, we had a tremendously compelling set of meetings, not only with the mayor but with faith leaders, with young people and with philanthropy business leaders. i learned so much. as you probably know, chris, i worked in baltimore for the better part of a decade. i was working in communities.
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this issue, frankly, is very personal for me. i'm a huge fan of baltimore. baltimore is a resilient town. they know how to take a punch. what we discussed today was we need to come together and make sure that everybody is on the same page. we have a tendency, not only in the federal government but in many places to operate in silos. we need to bust those silos. we need everyone working together. we have committed federal funds through a demonstration grant authority that we have. i said to them today, our goal is to get these funds to the city as soon as we can but it has to be part of a broader plan. we need to make sure it is sustainable, it is successful and that in order to do that, we have to listen. i spent most of my day, today, listening. we're going to spend most of the weeks ahead listening.
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what i learned the most today, chris, from young people, i don't think we listen enough to them. they have such hopes and dreams in the city of baltimore and elsewhere. we just don't listen enough. we have to bring a sense of humility to this enterprise. baltimore has a lot of assets. there have been a lot of success stories in baltimore's development. your listeners only see the events of the last two weeks. there have been dramatic developments of a positive variety eye mile south from ground zero. dramatic developments of a positive variety near johns hopkins, an anchor employer and educator. we need new plays in the playbook. we need a new normal in baltimore. because some of the things that have been done over the years have worked. some haven't. what we have to do is scale what's worked and fix what hasn't worked and put new tools in the tool box.
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>> new normal seems like a good motto going forward. secretary tom perez, thank you very much. >> always a pleasure. a lawyer for one of the baltimore police officers charged in the death of freddie gray is already challenging a key premise behind some of the charges against him. when she announced those charges last week, state's attorney, marilyn mosby, laid out that it was illegal in the first place. >> they placed him in a seated position and subsequently found a knife clipped to the inside of his pants pocket. the blade was folded into the handle. the knife was not a switchblade and is lawful under maryland law. lieutenant rice, officer miller and officer narrow failed to establish probable cause for mr. gray's arrest as no crime had been committed by mr. gray. accordingly, lieutenant rice, officer miller and officer narrow illegally arrested mr. gray. >> so legal knife, illegal arrest. three of the arresting officers,
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lieutenant brian rice, garrett miller and edward nero were charged with multiple counts of second-degree assault. now officer nero is insisting the knife was legal. they filed to inspigot that evidence. the city of maryland and baltimore outlaws switch blades. baltimore takes it a step further making it illegal to sell, carry or possess any knife with an automatic spring for opening or closing the blade. the state's attorney responded, while the evidence we have obtained through our independent investigation does substantiate the elements of the charges filed, i refuse to litigate this case through the media. the evidence we have cannot be ethically disclosed, relayed or released before trial." i talked to professor david figa, the national criminal defense college, about what he thought of the back and forth. >> first of all, can we just take a moment to talk about why we are paying so much attention
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to the fact that all of the sudden, when it is police whose defense attorneys are speaking, we're like, let's investigate this defense. this happens all the time. when somebody gets arrested and the defense lawyer says, he is not guilty -- generally met with deafening silence, but okay. here is the thing. what they are not talking about is the little bit about chasing. we can go to town all day long about whether it is or isn't. these knife statutes can be a little bit vague. sometimes it is hard to tell whether something is or isn't. that's called a matter of fact. matters of fact are decided by, guess what? juries. we have one side saying one thing. another side saying another thing. what that means is let's go have a trial. >> so let me ask you this. the chasing is something that we have been debating. i have been talking to lawyer friends. my wife is a lawyer. can you clear up something for me? i was trying to figure this out and going through what the supreme court has said. my understanding is that the
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supreme court has ruled that if you run from the police, you are walking down the street, you make eye contact and you dart, which is essentially according to the police the way this started, they then have probable cause to chase you. is that correct? >> no, not probable cause but maybe reasonable suspicion. there are all these different levels, each of which has this sort of idea behind it. i personally find that the question of, he looked at me funny or he didn't like how i looked at him so he left or ran, i find those things a little questionable. i frankly don't think you need to return an officer's gaze. i don't think the cops should have the right to go after you just because they don't like how you are looking at them. whether or not it is reasonable suspicion, yes, the supreme court has said in certain instances, when somebody runs from the police, it is reasonable suspicion to chase them. >> so we are sort of ascending the scale of the charges. when we get to depraved heart
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homicide, which is the most serious, can you explain what that charge is? >> a depraved heart? sure. >> what does prosecution have to show? >> it is a depraved indifference to human life. the best way to show it is it is designed for cases that are so egregious they constitute murder but the conduct wasn't really sort of shooting or stabbing somebody. the best example, you are driving along a freezing road. you throw somebody in a snowbank in the middle of nowhere and drive away and they freeze to death. that's the kind of depraved indifference to human life. it is so obvious that they are going to die. let's assume you throw anymore in naked and not in a parka. you strip somebody down and throw them naked in a snowbank and you drive away, they are going to freeze to death. that conduct shows a depraved indifference to human life. when you do that you're as guilty as if you shot or stabbed somebody intentionally. >> basically, the state in
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making that case is going to basically have to show that in this case the driver of that van, who is the person who has been charged with this essentially had to have known that something horrible was happening to freddie gray and failed to do anything about it? >> well, it is interesting. we have got to play with the had to have known. or was smart enough to know that it is so obvious when you handcuff somebody and throw them in the back of the van and give them a rough ride or slam on the brakes and they are sliding around in the back, that bad things will happen. there are all these levels. do you want to talk about recklessness? >> yes, sure. >> depraved indifference is the worst. then, there is recklessness which has to do with perceiving a threat and ignoring it or not perceiving a threat that you should have perceived. we are doing these weird fine
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gradiations. in the law, you have to define your way to how bad a crime is. that's what they are sort of trying to do with this. >> david feiga, laying it out. always very illucidating. thank you very much. >> my pleasure. >> great to see you. up next, as hillary clinton attacks left, we will talk with the only other democratic candidate running against her. why did the new york mayor announce a contract with america for progressives? the official deflategate is out. it doesn't look so good for quarterback, tom brady. we'll give you the details ahead. boys? stop less. go more. the passat tdi clean diesel with up to 814 hwy miles per tank. just one reason volkswagen is the #1 selling diesel car brand in america.
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group dedicated to convincing her to get in the race. the draft warren movement was not discussed and her office says the senator did not know anyone she met with was associated with it. that said, i will talk with a progressive who actually is running for president against hillary clinton. he joins me next. the beautiful sound of customers making the most of their united flight. power, wi-fi and streaming entertainment. that's... seize the journey friendly.
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she put herself to the left of president obama promising to expand his executive order of protecting so-called dreamers from deportation to include the parents of undocumented immigrants brought to the u.s. as children as well, even though the obama justice department has indicated it views such a move as illegal. >> there are more people, like many parents of dreamers and others with deep ties and contributions to our communities who deserve a chance to stay. i will fight for them. >> this is not the only issue where she has staked out a position on the left on tax rates, criminal justice reform and other issues. she has sought to align herself in the early goings, with the liberal base of her party. her campaign manager indicated she supported the push for debt-free college education. if clinton seems to be acting like she is facing a primary challenge from the left, that may be because she is facing a primary challenge from the left. there are currently two declared candidates in the race for democratic presidential nomination.
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the other being bernie sanders. despite the long odds he would seem to face against her who boasts high name recognition, connections to donators and party leaders, sanders has had a very good first week. he has raised $3 million in just four days. former aides to president obama to help with his campaign. today, he unveiled legislation to break up big banks drawing an implicit contrast with clinton who some view as too closely aligned with the financial sector. sanders sent a letter to president obama asking him to cancel a trip to nike headquarters. giving their legacy of off-shoring american jobs and exploiting low wage workers. joining me now is vermont senator bernie sanders. candidate for president. let's start with immigration reform. as president, would you take the same position enunciated by hillary clinton yesterday, in terms of executive action to
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protect the parents of those people brought here as children. those protected in the president's first executive action? >> the short answer is, absolutely. i applaud the secretary for taking that position. i voted and fought for immigration reform, voted for the senate passage of that legislation. we have 11 million people in this country living in the shadows, living in fear. that's got to end. we need a path towards citizenship for all of those people. the best way forward is legislation rather than executive action but i certainly would go forward with that type of executive action. >> i don't want to tarry on this too long. you and now secretary clinton are endorsing a position that the department of justice, office of legal counsel, has rejected as unlawful just to be clear here. did they get it wrong? >> look, the courts are the people who determine what is legal or not. i think what you need is an administration that fights for justice, fights for what is right, takes the case to the
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courts and you do your best to win that case. >> you introduced a bill today to break up too big to fail banks. is this an area of differentiation between you and secretary clinton? >> well, i suspect it is. what's most important, we have to deal with the reality that you have six financial institutions in this country that have assets equivalent to 60% of the gdp in america. they issue about half of the mortgages and one-third of the credit cards in this country. in my view, if a financial institution is, quote, unquote, too big to fail, it should be too big to exist. i think if teddy roosevelt, a good republican, were here today, he would say, break them up. they have too much power. they are an island unto themselves. they are not doing good service for the american economy. >> you, i think, are seen by progressives as a fellow
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progressive. you have an identity that's associated with the liberal wing of the democratic party. i want to talk about your stance on guns. slate had a headline, bernie sanders, gun nut. they go through your record. they talk about how you voted against the brady act. how you voted to allow guns on checked bags on amtrak. how you have gotten fairly high scores from the nra. are you, in fact, senator, a gun nut? >> actually, if you check it out, the last rating i got from the nra to the best of my knowledge was an "f." that doesn't quite make me a gun nut. in my state of vermont, we are a very rural state where guns are about hunting, target practice, antique guns and we have a pretty low crime rate. i do believe, obviously, that nationally, guns in baltimore and guns in los angeles are very different. i have voted against the importation of assault weapons. i understand not every part of america is the state of vermont.
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>> there's a big controversy brewing or the partnership congress being able to strike the deal and vote on it in full. clinton campaign chairman was asked how the clinton campaign would deal with the trade deal. he joked, can you make it go away? i thought was a pretty funny line. you have been an outspoken opponent. do you want to respond? >> yeah, john. it ain't going to go away. we are going to be voting on it fairly soon. ever since i have been in the congress, what i have understood is that all of these trade agreements, nafta, cafta, relations with china and now the dpp. these are proposals that by and large are being pushed by corporate america, being pushed by wall street and the pharmaceutical industry. since 2001, chris, we have lost almost 60,000 factories in america. millions of decent paying jobs. trade is not the only reason for
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the deindustrialization of america. it has played an important part. in terms of dpp, i do not want american workers involved in a race to the bottom competing against people in vietnam where the minimum wage is 56 cents an hour. we need a trade policy which helps poor people around the world but you can do that without losing millions of jobs in this country or driving wages down. >> senator sanders, there is a lot more i want to ask you, including your brother's campaign in england and the green party. someone told me and i said, what? we are going to have to save that for the next time. you will be on the campaign trail. there will be lots of time. thank you. as he begins a new progressive contract with america, just what exactly is new york mayor, bill de blasio up to? that's next. on: can you keep your lifestyle in retirement? i don't want to think about the alternative. i don't even know how to answer that. i mean, no one knows how long their money is going to last. i try not to worry but you worry. what happens
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i think the world of hillary. i have worked with and for her for years. the bottom line is we are at a moment where we need to hear a clear vision for addressing the economic reality. >> the first two weeks of hillary clinton's presidential campaign new york city mayor, bill de blasio former campaign manager of hillary clinton, has inserted himself into her candidacy, declining to endorse her and appearing to position himself as someone who can keep her honest when it comes to progressive principles. it is part of a national profile he is constructing for himself. today, he is featuring a rolling stones story that puts himself at the center of a national liberal movement.
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next tuesday at the capitol, he plans to unveil a 13-point progressive agenda modeled on newt gingrich's contract with america and designed to combat income inequality which includes universal pre-k, $15 minimum wage and paid family leave. it was developed in part at a closed door meeting of leaders and elected officials. his advisors say more than 60 big names have signed on include could -- including members of congress and celebrity activists. >> i disagree with newt gingrich on many things. in 1994, he put forth a contract with america. it had a crystallizing effect for his party and conservatives. it was a clear sharp set of objectives, ways to change america. as an organizational tool, it was very effective. >> what is bill de blasio up to? >> joining me katrina vanden. editor and publisher of "the nation" who was at the closed door meeting with the mayor last month. what's going on here? >> mayor de blasio believes that economic inequality is the crisis of our times.
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when he was elected mayor running as an economic populist, a democrat with a spine speaking in bold ways, he showed that that is winning politics and you can win campaigns. he became a national as soon as he was elected. my joke is on the reporter keys you have elizabeth warren, bill de blasio. we are in a populous moment. he understands that. he has become the central place where -- i've said to the mayor one thing i think he could do that is very important. you have this agenda that is going to be unveiled. you have mayors around this country from seattle, boston, washington, d.c., he is a fighter within the democratic party. you no he there is a battle being waged.
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between the wall street wing -- >> so you put your finger on what i think the fundamental lay of the land is and where this fits. just talked to bernie sanders, right? it is very hard to find a precedent for hillary clinton and the role she plays as a front-runner who is a non-incumbent. she's as close to an incumbent as you get. at the same time you have an active progressive base in the party. you have a lot of issues that would seem to favor the sort of liberal progressive base of the party but there is this kind of vacuum. this mismatch between the kind of behemoth that is hillary clinton and a lot of the energy that is>> reporter: -- that is roiling up in the democratic base. >> i disagree. i don't think there is a disconnect anymore. i think you see each day hillary clinton being pushed and moved by the populous movements in this moment. that is part of what the mayor is trying to do with this agenda. he sees it as another kind of strike in the 2016 and beyond to move someone like hillary
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clinton, to move her in the debate and dialogue around economic inequality. there are a lot of other groups, by the way. the campaign for america's future with national people's action last week, bill de blasio is going to be part of that next week, called rewriting the rules. all of this -- look mayor cuomo in new york state. >> governor cuomo. >> i'm sorry, governor cuomo. just announced that he is going to convene the wage board to look at increasing wages for fast food workers. you can ask why, and you can also look at mayor de blasio who has not had the easiest relationship with governor cuomo. he, mayor de blasio, in unveiling this contract agenda and in what he has been pushing forward, saying to democrats, you need a spine. you need to be bolder. if you want turnout energy and to stand as the identifiable party with working people, middle class people, we need to remember what the democratic party stood for.
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we sit here. >> it is a fascinating moment. >> when he burst on the scene and the nation endorsed him because of his commitment to tackling the economic inequality in this city, this city has already seen what this agenda has laid out, pre-k, living wage for 20,000 families and paid sick leave. these are the basics. even joe scarborough on this network said, hey, that could be part of something conservative said. now, the agenda the major has put forward is also calling for a bipartisan forum with different candidates. we have to watch the republicans who, by the way, are also moved. >> they're talking about it. >> they talked the talk. >> what's fascinating is we have this moment in which the democratic party is trying to define what its post obamaness will look like. it has this singular figure in hillary clinton and the massive influence she has. it has this grassroots and set of issues that seem right for the taking, both substances being politically. it is interesting the role that de blasio is setting up for himself. >> in his cooper union speech, he said clearly his
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administration comes out of the movements. i think any leader today has to be aware of the movements. >> those movements that get pushed off the street by the new york city p.d. >> we have disagreements. that's why the movements need to stay on the mayor and the governor. it is a testament to the fast food workers organizing. katrina vanden heuvel, my friend, my boss. the attempt to ban a ban on fracking in denton, texas. the mayor there joins me next. when you're not confident your company's data is secure the possibility of a breach can quickly become the only thing you think about. that's where at&t can help. we monitor network traffic worldwide, so we can see things others can't. mitigating risks across your business. leaving you free to focus on what matters most.
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stadium where the university of texas mean green plays football. it is on the edge of the barnett shale, the largest source of natural gas, which stretches 5,000 square miles beneath a dozen counties. given this there was enough concerns in the denton community that residents voted last november on texas' first ban on fracking. the texas legislature now appears to be on the verge of banning the banning of fracking. a bill that would undercut any local laws banning fracking has passed through the republican legislature and sent to the republican governor, greg abbott, expected to sign it. mayor chris watts joining me. why did you guys down there decide to ban fracking? >> well, chris, that was an interesting phenomenon. basically, we had a situation where we passed an ordinance in 2013 that increased the setbacks for oil and gas wells from residential neighborhoods and protected uses. right after that, a few months after that, an operator was coming in to rework a well and
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re-drill a new well that violated that particular setback. because of the legal doctrine of vested rights in the state of texas, our ordinance didn't apply was the claim. so the residents, that was sort of it for the residents. they banned together and obtained 2000 signatures and pursuant to our charter, presented us with a petition to ban hydraulic fracturing, got the required signatures and brought it before the city council. the city council denied the ordinance as far as accepting it at the council level to send it to the vote of the citizens. this was citizen-initiated and it should have been citizen decided and it was in november. about 59% to 41%. >> let me get this straight. first, you start with a sort of measure that just limits fracking. then, the gas companies come back and say, well, actually, we could override your limit and the citizens say, oh, no, no, no, fine. if that's the way you are going to play, we are going to ban you outright.
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passes all of denton. now, you have the governor and the legislature telling you denton can't do that. what do you think of that? >> chris, we sort of expected something. the morning after november the 4th, at 8:00, we had two lawsuits from the texas general land office and texas oil and gas association. we anticipated that. with the legislature coming into session, we anticipated some legislation that may limit our ability to enforce or for that ban to even be active? >> so what do you think of it? is this the right thing for the state of texas to reach down to a municipality whose citizens have decided they want to be governed a certain way and tell them they can't do it? >> i tell you, it is a very interesting issue. at the city level as mayor, i'm charged with protecting the health, safety and welfare of our citizens. the citizens voted to ban the process of hydraulic fracturing. the state legislature picked it
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up and decided that the oil and gas industry in texas has an overriding interest. i think the attempt was to try to balance mineral interests with surface right interests. of course, in the state of texas, mineral interests are dominant. they sort of trump surface interests. so in some ways, people began to see that this ban was a way to sort of take away individual property rights of the mineral owners. for me, it is a more narrow issue of urban drilling. there is a lot of new urban drilling that requires additional measures to protect the health and safety of the citizens and the nuisance values of light and noise and truck. i had a gentlemen call me at 10:00 at night, because his house was lit up like a football field because they were doing work. it was intenable for them to get some kind of quality of life. >> natural gas fracking extraction brings into urban centers and residential areas things that had formerly not been in those residential
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centers. oklahoma has got the same page out of the texas playbook. lawmakers there trying to ban fracking bans. you are going to be an interesting test case. mayor, thank you for joining us. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> all right. next what the nfl investigation says tom brady knew about the deliberate deflating of his footballs. >> i have no knowledge of anything. i have no knowledge of any wrongdoing. i'm very comfortable saying that. hey pal? you ready? can you pick me up at 6:30? ah... (boy) i'm here! i'm here! (cop) too late. i was gone for five minutes! ugh! move it. you're killing me. you know what, dad? i'm good. (dad) it may be quite a while before he's ready, but our subaru legacy will be waiting for him. (vo) the longest-lasting midsize sedan in its class. the twenty-fifteen subaru legacy. it's not just a sedan. it's a subaru. ♪ one, two, three o'clock. four o'clock pop. ♪ five, six, seven o'clock. eight o'clock pop. ♪ ♪ nine, ten eleven o'clock ♪
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you want me to lose weight? >> no, we can't legally ask you to do that. >> we didn't say lose weight. >> i might say tighten, a little. >> a little tighter. that scene from the movie "knocked up" is more or less how i always imagined the conversation went down at foxborough. no one said, hey, go illegally deflate a few game balls and someone said, i wouldn't say you should illegally deflate the balls. i might say they should be more grippable. today we learned the outcome of a nearly four-month investigation into the controversy better known as deflategate. the findings -- two new england patriots probably deplated some balls on purpose and the quarterback, tom brady, was probably aware of it. it started in january at the game where they faced the indianapolis colts and whipped them 45-7 to advance the super bowl.
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it was later revealed that 11 out of 12 game balls were found to be underinflated in violation of nfl rules. brady was forced to address the controversy during the run-up to the super bowl. he denied any wrongdoing. >> i have always played within the ruse. i would never do anything to break the rules. i believe in fair play and respect the league and everything they are doing to try to create a very competitive playing field for all the teams. >> today, an nfl investigation led by attorney ted wells found it is more probable than not that tom brady was generally aware of the inappropriate activities involving patriots personnel and game balls. it found that jim mcnally, locker attendant and john smith, equipment assistant, participating in a deliberate attempt to release air from the balls after they were examined by the referee. it reveals a series of text messages often discussing tom brady's persistent frustration with the inflation level of the
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game balls. mcnally even referring to him as the deflator in one exchange. according to the report, a number of texts between he and tom brady occurred in late january. brady texts, you good, johnny boy, you doing good? his reply, still nervous, so far, so good. the report also states that no other patriots personnel, including head coach, bill belichick, was aware of any wrongdoing. robert kraft issued a response saying the organization is disappointed by the report. nfl commissioner, roger goodell, said the league will consider taking disciplinary action. "we will continue our efforts vigorously to protect the integrity of the game and promote fair play at all times." what should the nfl do about it? what will they do about it? that's the debate coming up next.
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or any symptoms of an allergic reaction stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. why pause the moment? ask your doctor about cialis for daily use. for a free 30-tablet trial go to can you answer right now? is tom brady a cheater. >> i don't believe so. i feel like i have always played within the rules. i would never do anything to break the rules. i have no knowledge of anything. i have no knowledge of any wrongdoing. i am very comfortable saying that. i am very comfortable saying that nobody did it, as far as i know. i don't know everything. i also understand that i, you know, was in the locker room preparing for a game. i don't know what happened over the course of the process with the footballs. >> tom brady showing what happens when handsome meets guilty as held.
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first, we are going to talk about what the league should do. before we do that, david, i will start with you. obviously, brady knew. i'm going to go out on a limb. when you read the text messages, here is clearly what was happening. brady was coming to the equipment guys, saying, do what you have got to do to get these down. you have the equipment manager complaining about what a jerk brady is to him who is clearly berating him because the balls are clearly inflated. the other guys saying "i'll bring you a needle i'll bring you a needle." what happened? >> right now, they are a bunch of really sweet face kids in chicago and members of a team called jackie robinson west. they are asking their moms and dads, does this mean the patriots lose the title, mommy? they are saying, no, kids, that only happen toss poor black kids in america, not billionaire nfl teams. chris, i was on your show five months ago. what did i say? >> you said, they are going to pin it on the equipment manager. my only mistake was, i said they are going to pin it on mike and sully and instead, on jimmy mack
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and johnny j. the only thing that report was missing is one of them texting, you know, tom isn't really that wicked smart. that was the entire report. bill belichick gets away. tom brady gets away. if you listen really closely, you can hear a giant 500 pound asterisk being affixed to tom brady's legacy. >> let me ask you this, based on the finding in the report, what should the league do? >> the league needs to institute a fine. i think that's probably going to happen. it will be very interesting to see if tom brady gets a suspension. he think he should based on what we see. the other side is, are they going to have their poster boy, their golden child not on the field for opening night when the season opens. >> the year after they won the super bowl. let's remember the context here. >> right. the timing has been very convenient for the league. frankly, that they didn't have to address any of this before it happened.
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now, it is kind of uncomfortable that they have to put an asterisk on a super bowl that was won. it took them less time to find photos of greg hardy's abuse victim than it did to issue a 245 page report on this. >> let's talk about the thoroughness of this report. i refer you to figure 16 from the report, on page 240. that's pressure as a function of time while a football is being vigorously rubbed. that's the term in there, vigorously rubbed. that's apparently what the curve looks like when you vigorously rub a football and how its psi increases. this was a pretty thorough undertaking, dave. >> it keeps reminding me of that line from charlie murphy from the chappelle show. bill belichick and the patriots are habitual line crossers. that's why so many nfl players. this is what's shocking. nfl players put the wall of silence worse than the cops. when this started to break, people like mark burnell crying.
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crying, saying the patriots are cheaters. greg lewis said every one of their titles should be looked at. nfl players don't usually speak about each other about that beyond the shield. it says something about the amount of ill will that bill belichick, bob kraft, and tom brady have accrued over time. ignorance is no excuse. if he applied that to himself, he would have committed hari-kari on the 50 yard line entering the super bowl. if he wants to apply it to teams, he does have to do a real punishment here. >> do you think substantively they should take away the title? >> do i? >> yeah. >> oh, hell yeah, unless you want to give the little league title back to jackie robinson west. they either cheated or they didn't. if we think they cheated, let's erase the ted wells lawyer speak. seattle, get ready.
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weed is little anyway, let's do a big old parade right there. that would literally, what davis saying, you would have riots, actually? >> you would absolutely have riots. what we are complaining about in baltimore would be 50 times worse in boston. i can't imagine that happening, not the least reason of which is the undue influence and power that patriots owner, robert kraft has especially in roger goodell's inner circle. >> let's be clear. they did win the game. 45-7. they destroyed the colts in that game. they scored a ton in the second half after they replaced the football. to me, it is less about -- to me, what's fascinating here is just like the idea of how this habitual lying gets engendered in the institution. >> the offense isn't all that egregious. we talked to equipment marks and this goes on all across the
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league. aaron rodgers kind of likes his balls overinflated. the coverup is what the problem is and the institutional, as you said, culture of cheating that a lot of people around the league really agree that the patriots have. >> brady, when you think about the power imbalance between tom brady, one of the most famous, accomplished, well-paid athletes in the world texting this equipment manager after the story breaks saying, you good, johnny boy? that is straight up, tony soprano. it is an incredible thing to keep the conspiracy, buddy, don't roll on me. >> yep, and two other facts that are behind this too. the g.m. of the colts said before that game, hey, we should be checking the balls during the game. he was clearly ignored. that says something. people knew about this. second, we are talking a lot about the colts. i know baltimore has bigger issues to deal with. baltimore was on a sweet run. they had beaten the steelers. who knows how that game would have been different.
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i know a lot of folks in baltimore are asking other questions. they might want to ask that question too. >> it is fascinating to watch the league now have to deal with this. they had the commission report. the story was the absolute biggest story in the world. now they have the report, what are they going to do with it? david and kavitha, thank you. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. if they took away the title, there would be rioting, including in this studio. one-person pitiful, underinformed riot. >> no justice, no peace. >> thank you, my friend. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. one of the funnier, conservative political impulses in this country in the last few years was when president obama was first elected and to a lesser extent when he was re-elect friday 2012. there was this little outburst on the right of american conservatives threatening that they were going to move to canada.